A Snip Decision: the Pros and Cons of Early Neutering Can Be Complicated
I have an intact dog. That comment will incense many people and a near equal amount will wonder why I am admitting it like a confession. It is a confession of sorts. I have been a rescuer for more than fourteen years. I have been involved in shelter work for longer than that. Having an intact dog goes against everything I believe in.
The majority of people I am close to would have made the appointment for neutering the second that their dog turned the magic age of six months. Kenzo is about to turn nine months old. I agreed to wait until he was a year old to alter him and it has been suggested that I wait until he is two years old. Some days, I want to chuck my agreement in the garbage and call the vet for a same day appointment. Other days, I am sure I can wait. Most days I waver between the two.
Kenzo, at 9 months of age.
The subject of neutering (early or at all!) is controversial in some circles and causes blood boiling on both sides. I asked about neutering large and giant breeds earlier than a year, on my personal Facebook page a few months ago. It turned into a war zone. I had to delete some comments and moderate others. I defended my desire to neuter now or at all, with those who insisted neutering was never a good idea while with others, I defended my reasons for not neutering yet. It was a thin line to walk, trying to stand my ground without making myself a target for either side.
Some readers will wonder what the big deal is, why wait you ask? Why ask for input at all, right? Well, for those who have not followed along closely, and for those who have and may not have realized, Kenzo is considered a giant breed. Giant breeds of dogs grow more slowly than even large breeds; which I have always had and neutered as early as possible. Growth plates are not closed until at minimum, eighteen months and in some cases, two years. How much difference can that make with regards to neutering? That remains to be seen. Hence my perfectly innocent and inquisitive Facebook question.
Questionable studies were thrown at me, anecdotal “evidence” was cited, veiled threats were made, insults were thrown and nothing was truly accomplished. When it all comes down to it, it’s still my decision to make. I just have not made it yet.
How does this relate to multiple dogs? Trent, my eight year old neutered male Pit Bull is an insecure dog. He always has been. But until a little over a year ago, he had the most confident male dog in the world keeping him safe from the revolving door of foster dogs that came through this house. Of course, I am the one who has really kept him safe, but Trent adored Merlin and viewed him as his personal protector. Merlin is no longer here to protect him and now Trent is the “big brother” to a dog who has already eclipsed ninety pound Siri in size. Trent is a bit overwhelmed. Add the intact factor with Kenzo hitting the magic testosterone age of not quite nine months of age and you have a potential dilemma.
Kenzo is just starting to test his boundaries. The marking outside over Siri and Trent’s urine has started, mostly in the yard but occasionally on walks as well. We have had two posturing/marking incidents in the house recently when Kenzo has felt the need to show that he had his big boy pants on; once with Siri and once with Trent. That got quickly redirected by yours truly, but the moment was still noted by Trent and that is what matters. And of course Siri just looks at Kenzo like he has lost his mind, so I’m not worried about her.
It has been obvious that Trent is more comfortable playing with Kenzo these days, which helps ease my mind. Siri is much more inclined to play with him that Trent though. She also feels more comfortable shutting him down immediately if he annoys her than Trent does. But I do my best to not place either of them in the position of having to do that. Many of these things are just puppy versus older dog issues but many more aren’t. The differences between having an intact dog in the house compared to a neutered dog are glaringly obvious, at least to me, a behavior expert.
Aside from the extreme interest in Siri’s urine that keeps his Jacobson Gland in overdrive, there is the instinct that drives him to pace their every pottying need. And of course, there is the wariness that all neutered males greet him with. He can’t help any of this but it’s still there. So my thoughts dwell on this test of time. Can I wait or should assured peace be claimed? The answer to that question remains to be seen. I will keep you posted.
In the meantime, feel free to add your POLITE thoughts on my quandary. Rudeness will not be tolerated, nor will name calling, etc. And keep in mind that Kenzo WILL be neutered. That is not up for discussion. The question is when. I have read everything I need to read on the subject, medically speaking. I am just looking for other’s experiences with multiple males in the household, both neutered and intact, preferably also with a female in the home. Thanks for being understanding.
I have raised about a dozen intact males now through the height of their testosterone. Like you, the first few caused me to be hyervigilant about toileting patterns, and posturing, but over the years, with a lot of experience, I can tell you that there are males who care and males who don’t. Stick to your guns when it comes to your boundaries, and keep in mind that neutered males test boundaries too. My best advice to you is to train the dog, not the testicles.
I applaud you for keeping an open mind regarding what to do about your male dog’s status. Something I think we forget about far too often is that once we do the deed, we cannot change that choice, so deciding slowly is best. My choice has been to have my dogs vasectomized and it has worked out quite well for us.
LOL my girls – both neutered and intact are much more obsessed with pee. I believe it has to do with rank versus genital status. The girls stand ‘eagle eyed’ outside waiting for others to pee. They will pee on any pee from a dog of lessor status but never pee on the pee of a dog they perceive as higher in rank – no matter how much they wish that dog did not have higher rank! The boys do pee over pee, sometimes, but not with the obsession of the girls. One exception is when a girl is in season – then everyone pees on her pee.
I’ve neutered early in the past (boys), then decided there was no harm in waiting a year or two……and now there is still no reason. My boys are 4 1/2, 3 1/2 and almost 2 – no issues with them individually or with my other dogs – or other dogs outside my home. None of my dogs have any interest in other dogs. Being intact has never been a distraction for my boys at dog shows.
Maybe we have no ‘issues’ because all my dogs are part of a family ‘pack’ from birth, so their family teaches them appropriate behavior from birth, but they have no issues with other dogs that stay here occasionally. However some of our visitors have ‘issues’.
BTW my dogs all hump each other equally – boys, girls, neutered, intact…..well, some of the older dogs don’t allow it – and no one ever tries.
My stance is, if it isn’t broke. don’t ‘fix’ it – figuratively and literally!
Is your health guarantee from the breeder null and void if you neuter early?
I believe in spay and neuter but also am not a fan of early spay and neuter for my own dogs.
AFter reading your blog I feel your frustration and understand your hesitation.
If I had this breed and after doing my medical research like you I would set the goal of waiting to neuter. If you are able to manage the pee contest and your other dogs are not getting stressed by having this unneutered boy I would wait. If it is becoming too stressful for you and your other boy I would have to consider what is best for all of my dogs.
I think neutering decisions need to be discussed with a vet you’re comfortable with. We’ve never had an intact male so I can’t speak to those specific issues but just neutering in general. I think neutering/spaying have to be the norm in our society with intact being reserved for the “too young” or still growing (as in the case of Mr. Kenzo), for those who, for medical reasons, would not survive anesthesia and for those involved in genetically-sound, responsible breeding programs (or else all dogs would be mutts within a few generations and we’d lose those characteristics that make each breed unique). I think we agree on that =) For us, personally, when we adopted Izzy (a small lab mix, adopted at 9 wks old), we waited until beyond 6 months as well. She was very small for her breed/age and when she hit the 6 month mark, she had a bit of a cold. Our vet was more than comfortable with our decision to wait – in fact, she preferred waiting as well. Izzy was in no danger of coming into contact with an intact male (as I know Kenzo isn’t around intact females) and the vet preferred that she was a bit bigger for the surgery (esp for the female “stuff”). Waiting until an animal is full-grown/growth-plates sealed (or whatever they do…) is a smart decision — provided there is no aggression issues or the chance of unwanted litters. We just didn’t want Izzy to go into heat and the risk of breast cancer that seems to go along with that. Obviously, with little boys, that’s not a concern. I know you – you will do the necessary research and make the most sound decision for Kenzo. Giant breeds aren’t as well-known as the typical labs/sheps/pitties in our area. I say wait until he’s at least a yr and see how his behavior is, how Trenty is reacting and then see how much longer you want to wait. Once his growth plates are sealed though, I’d be sending him for his big snip =)
When I have it to do over again, I’ll have xrays at a year and decide then. (You might wait till 18 months because of size, I don’t have dogs that big just the 70lb range.) If the growth plates were closed or nearly closed then I’d do it. If it were starting to cause real behaviour problems in the house I’d be tempted to do it a little earlier. I think there’s a balance between how much they gain from letting things grow, and what they loose in the relationships with the other dogs in the house. Some people wouldn’t put as much value on that second part, but I think they are both quality of life issues. That’s my opinion, but probably has as much to do with my personality and how my house is run, ymmv.
You know only you can decide if and when the time is right. Every dog is different…
I prefer to leave my Border Collies males intact… personal preference.
i guess i can’t understand the “assumptions” folks make if one chooses not to neuter…
I think that whatever will make the household more livable for all involved is the only thing that is important. I would hate the situation to escalate to the point where one dog had to be crated, gated or muzzled to keep the peace. For myself that isn’t a solution, I want to live with. Good luck, I know you will do what is best for the dogs lives together.
I’m so glad you’ve addressed this subject. As the long time owner of Newfoundlands, I’ve seen wisdom develop over the years. Currently, besides the recommendation not to neuter males till over 1 yr because of joint development, it is recommended to wait and neuter females after 9 months to 1 yr because of development of incontinence problems.
Having had multiple Newfs – sometimes intact males, neuters males and intact females at the same time – I had some recommendations I wanted to post, but because I’ve seen the intensity with which many people hold their opinions on the subject, I chose not to. I am so glad you called for a peaceful environment to share tips on living in these situations. When I first encountered issues I pretty much had to fend for myself because all discussions turned to “us vs them”.
That said two things have been life savers for us. FIrst, reinforcing one of your common recommendations – exercise. A tired dog is a more peaceful dog. Just realize exercise has to be more segregated. Second the product “No Mark”. This spray works wonders cleaning up areas where your male has marked, but more importantly deters future marking. It doesn’t stain furniture and has a nice spicy smell.
I hope this blog can be the beginning of more peaceful discussions in the dog world. I find it so sad dog lovers have divided into so many camps. We actually all want the same thing – happy, healthy dogs in the homes of good, responsible owners.
My husband and I currently have 3 male and 1 female dog. As is your case, one is a larger breed. The female is a bullmastiff and my husband would like to wait as long as possible before spaying her. The males are a small mix breed who has been fixed since 6 mos, a dalmatian who was fixed just days ago at 6 mos, and a rhodesian ridgeback who is only 4 mos and not fixed yet. The irony of the whole thing is that the most completely potty trained and longest neutered one (small mixed breed) got a wild hair and decided to mark the brand new bed I brought home for them to share. There have been a couple other incidences of questionable spots that may have been marks but I never suspected him to be the culprit. Now I have to figure out how to deal with that behavior despite being neutered.
I also have a male Leonberger who just turned 2 years in July. I understand your quandary as I have heard both sides of the story. My first bernese mtn. dog was neutered at 4.5 months for good reasons based on where I was living at the time. Other than being tall and lanky he never had too many issues. They say neutering can increase risk of CCL injuries….I’m still not totally sold on that one. My berner did have a partial tear which did not require surgery. Despite his early neutering, I’m not surprised about the injury because from very early on he had a tendency to spin on his hind legs (not related to age of neutering). Since my first bernese, I have tended towards spaying/neutering later, but my one limitation is obnoxious behavior. My second berner female was neutered at 8 months (required by breeder). She is solid as a tank, short and stocky like her mom. Her hips came back as good (OFA) and elbows (normal). She just turned 4 and has had no joint problems. Now to my Leonberger I waited until he was 9.5 months. The decision was made because he was becoming increasingly obnoxious with other (intact and neutered) male dogs at the dog park. I was afraid one day this behavior may get him into trouble. I could hide him at home…but socializing is critical with this breed. After neutering the behavior has subsided somewhat, but not completely. As for how he acts around my female berner, he pees in the same spot she pees. So far no leg-lifting, but I’ve seen evidence of it starting (slight lifts). He occasionally tries to mount my female, but she won’t put up with it. My goal was 12 months….but did not make it. As for orthopedics, from what I have observed he reached total height by 16 months (the majority of growth was by 12 months). He is a solid 140-lbs, has good conformation, but I have not done x-rays yet. Good luck with your decision.
I have an 11 month old Akita: my first Akita, but not my first guard dog, and I live downtown in a large city. I consulted three vets as to when to neuter my dog: two said 14 months; one said 18 months. None said “don’t do it!” I bought a dog from a breeder who is trying to breed for good, calm temperament, but she lives in the country and does not have to neuter her dogs, so she has no advice. She does not neuter her dogs or take them for walks in dog parks: they live in the house and out in a pen, and the pair, a male and female, have each other: totally different life from that of my dog.
My dog loves to play with other dogs: dogs with a good temperament. Fun dogs. But he does get into trouble with out of control, unruly dogs.
Everyone tells me my dog will calm down when neutered, and will be able to play with other dogs in local dog parks. I am concentrating on socializing my dog, but he is a guard dog, and he does act as if he is in charge of policing the dog park: he does not like badly behaved dogs and although he has not started a fight, he does get into spats with aggressive male dogs. Everyone tells me that this will stop when the dog is neutered: that unneutered males are like a red flag to many neutered males, and there will always be trouble if I do not neuter my dog.
I think that my dog will always have this “policing” attitude, neutered or not; that he will always come to the rescue of a dog being bullied and will always try to put badly behaved dogs in their place. This is not aggression for the sake of aggression: this is a protective guard dog following his true nature – in my opinion. I do not believe neutering will solve all these problems.
Recently a male dog got into his face big time: my dog had a spat with this dog. Dog ran off. Next day, this dog entered the park totally calm: no barking or acting up. My dog greeted him, then played with him for about half an hour, no problem at all. They were actually happy to see each other. This other dog was a normal dog. Many are not and would probably get into a fight with my dog over and over again.
He has not yet started really going after females for sex, but no doubt that will happen. I do not want any puppies, and understand that there are quite enough dogs out there as it is. Neutering should stop him from trying to mount females, I hope.
He is only 77 pounds. Doubt he will get much bigger than about 90 pounds. He is American Akita crossed with the smaller Japanese Akita.
He is absolutely perfect in the house: just what I need in a dog.
Exercising him is the problem. He enjoys nothing more than being with other dogs. I guess I will just have to neuter him, in order to “get along” in the city with all the other dogs. I hate to do this, but I don’t think he would enjoy just going for long walks with me. I have injured my knees, so cannot run with him. He breaks training if he sees another dog: always wants to greet and play with them.
What a dilemma. I bought an expensive dog from a good breeder; I feed him expensive raw food; I am spending hours and hours of time with him, and I want to avoid health problems, yet just by neutering him, for my convenience, I will be condemning him to the very health problems I am trying to avoid.
Is a good, well socialized dog going to suddenly turn into a dangerous, aggressive dog in a few months, just because I do not neuter him??? That is a major worry.
Maybe I should just move to the country, get him a vasectomy, and hope for the best.
I thought early socializing and training would be enough to curb aggression. Maybe I am wrong, and the worst is yet to come.
I have never had an unneutered dog past nine months of age, so no idea what his behaviour will be like as he gets older.
Just airing my worries – thanks for listening.
All the very best,
Cathy in Toronto, Canada
I’ve always had either Pyreneans or Estrelas before I got Aslan, my first Leo. I had done my research on them but I’d never expected a dog to take so much delight in being such a trouble maker!
Aslan is now 10 months old and his hormones have really kicked in. Even though I have an acre of garden (unfortunately for me with a lake at the bottom of it), he constantly escapes via the lake despite the barriers and causes havoc in the area. Being still a puppy all he wants to do is play with the other dogs in the park next to us. Unfortunately, because of his size and strength, dogs can’t stand him – some run in the opposite direction yelping in fear even when Aslan is on lead.
I’ve become agitated and sometimes tearful when people tell me to re-home Aslan and frustrated when it’s suggested he should be neutered. The former will never happen. I’ve been close to getting Aslan neutered before his 18 month deadline but reading your article has given me strength to persevere and I have you to thank!
We have two Leonbergers,one eight years not neutered and one 9 months old and book to be neutered tomorrow..he is playful but not aggressive and they get on well together except when he tries to ‘hump’ the eight year old then they don’t fight but elder one clearly doesn’t like it…I’m reluctant to have the op ..help please?.
Hello, and mostly thankyou for posting this. I have a 7 month old Leonberger, who has just started to become a little bit of a hand full! He is obviously very ready to do the deed with a female Dod. 🙈
He is hard work when out walking. He want to run and jump on every femail dog that passes buy. There has bin a few times now, where he jumped and pulled me so much he got free, ran right up to the female dog and pounces on them. Needless to say, the other owners are far from amused by his bad behaviour. I do dominate and tell him off when I finally catch up. So…… my question is, if I castrated him when mature enough. Do you think this would calm him down? Or should I socialise him more?
Thank you for reading this. I eagerly await your reply
Kind regards
Viktoria
Hi Victoria, I would neuter him when old enough but I would also get a professional modern methodology trainer to help you to teach him better manners so that you can properly socialize him.
I think neutering will definitely help but teaching him what is and isn’t permissible is also very important.
Please stick to your guns. My giant breed mutt was neutered before six months and has had growth plate issues (torn CCL and bone chip in his elbow, two surgeries before he was two years old), and behavior issues (insecurity and fear aggression). The new research I’ve been reading suggesting how testosterone moderates both physicality and behavior absolutely supports what I’ve been observing. I wish I could know what he would have been like without early neuter.
I used to always wait until my male dogs reached at least 6 months, but my vet said that weight should b considered above age. As a result, my boxer/border collie was neutered at about 4 months. He grew into a giant. He surpassed both parents in height and weight and ended up at 95 lbs, tall and lean. He also had dble ACL surgery by the time he was 2. That was his only significant health issue until hemangiosarcoma at age 10. He was a big cuddly baby, protective of us, but gentle with all other dogs. He never once marked in the house. He lived with 3 female dogs of various ages and one other male dog, also neutered. He often attended daycare and the dog park and never had any issues getting along with others.